People say if God exists He should fix things up, punish the bad people for doing evil things and reward good people for doing good things. When the same people can’t see God action this, they conclude that God does not exist. When you look at this simple and “strong” argument you might agree with them, but…
Imagine, if God wants to judge person A for being evil, He will have to (because He is fair and just) also look into which people and situations contributed to person A becoming a wrongdoer. If these people and situations did not happen in A’s life, he might have become a good and noble citizen instead of a criminal. Now imagine that persons B, C and D had a strong bad influence on A and person E failed to provide a positive influence at the opportune moment, when A was looking desperately for anyone to help him battle the surge of evil in his life.
God, being just, has to judge B, C, D and E as well. But, like in the case of person A, He has to look into who made a bad influence on these people as well. Do you see where this is going? Obviously, there is a whole pile of people that made bad influences on B, C, D and E; and you can also imagine that there will be even a bigger pile of bad influencers behind those baddies. Pretty soon everybody on the earth needs to be judged, and not just that, those that died without being properly punished have to be judged as well. Otherwise, God wound be mocked and the Bible tells us that He is not (Galatians 6:7).
So, to be fair and just, God has to do all this judgement (of the living and the dead) at the same time—on the Judgement Day. I mean, what’s the use of judging A and then letting B, C, D and E off the hook to tarry a little while longer in their own wrong ways. They would just continue to do damage and spread the wrong influence. When God judges He will judge everybody at the same time, in a single day. So, we should be able to agree that such Judgement Day is the only fair and just thing that God can do to “fix things up”.
Conclusion is that you cannot ask God to judge one person without Him judging you as well.
But who could possibly stay standing on their own on the Judgement Day? Who will be able to say I’m righteous and I fully complied with God’s standard every second of my life? The only way to escape punishment on that day is to either:
a) become perfect and blameless or
b) get someone else to pay for your sins.
If you can’t do ‘a’, the only viable option is ‘b’, which is to accept Lord Jesus as your Savior. Jesus’ ultimate sacrifice on the cross is the provision God made for everybody who believes in Jesus and trusts God to be made blameless and righteous (see John 1:29, Matthew 26:28, Romans 4:3-8).
Jesus is called the Savior because He will save you from God’s judgement. If you want to receive this grace for free, just say this simple prayer (and mean it!):
Lord Jesus, I repent of my sins. Come into my heart, I make you my Lord and Savior.
PS: See also “The Big Picture” page, which gives an overview of God’s strategy to remove all evil from His creation.
About Science, Religion and Life 
Well, you hypothesised a scenario to suit your argument. However there are enough scenarios which are not “that” complicated for a god to judge. For example a random act of violence by a person on a cpmplete stranger, ie a street mugging or an indecent assault/rape? Why cannot god punish the culprit then and there??
On the other hand, even in your hypothetical scenario, there would have been some simple event that was the origin of the chain of events that resulted in B,C,D, ……X,Y,Z getting involved in the process leading to the final wrong act of A. In that case, it is the inability or the inactiveness of god to act right at the beginning to prevent further escalation of the situation, that has caused A to do the wrong thing ! Will god punish himself for that?
Basically, your argument can be back tracked all the way upto Adam and Eve, since it is their original sin that is alleged to be the beginning of all troubles humans have faced, then onwards. So why didn’t god simply eliminate those two then and there, and create two new couples with a proper BRAIN to understand the responsibility of using the “free will” correctly and according to the wishes of god?
J, welcome back 🙂
It takes years for the human psyche to develop in the particular direction, good or bad. Person’s actions are a byproduct of his/hers beliefs, upbringing, environmental influences, will power etc. There is no randomness in human behavior. Research biographies of muggers and rapists; they come from broken families and situations. Your premise is based on the wrong foundation.
“A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks” (Luke 6:45, NKJV).
I used to think on the same lines as you do now, but God is not bloodthirsty. He is not looking over your shoulder constantly, marking you down every time you make a wrong move. If He would and if He would apply the “instant correction” as you are suggesting above, both of us would be goners.
God’s standards are much higher than you think. Are you sure you want to be judged by them?
****A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks (Luke 6:45, NKJV).*****
This is a highly generalised statement of no real value. There are enough instances where otherwise “good” persons have done evil acts and vice-versa. It is extremely difficult, or virtually impossible to find a 100% good or a 100% evil human being.
****It takes years for the human psyche to develop in the particular direction, good or bad. Person’s actions are a byproduct of his/hers beliefs, upbringing, environmental influences, will power etc.****
Exactly. Initially, when a person is born into a situation where beliefs, upbringing and environmental influences are detrimental, whose fault is it? Why has god allowed that particular person to be born into such a situation? Thereafter isn’t god responsible to give a helping hand to guide the poor unfortunate creature out of the miserable situation?
****I used to think on the same lines as you do now, but God is not bloodthirsty. He is not looking over your shoulder constantly, marking you down every time you make a wrong move. If He would and if He would apply the “instant correction” as you are suggesting above, both of us would be goners.****
Well, since god’s capability, resources, intelligence, power etc, are UNLIMITED, god could easily monitor EVERY HUMAN BEING in the world, EVERY NANO-SECOND from birth, and could make necessary and minor corrections to minor errors committed by the person at the initial stages, without which matters could escalate into a serious situation – other human beings getting entangled along the way – leading to an extremely suffering incident occurring to a complete stranger, or many more. Even at this stage, if a severe punishment is not given to the culprit, more and more people are going to suffer, because by this time the culprit’s “psyche” is more or less fully developed. The only question is whether god has the brain to understand the situation, and willingness to act accordingly. Humans themselves are trying by forming laws and punishing culprits if they are caught with sufficient evidence. Although these systems are not foolproof at all, they prevent to a certain extent, the world becoming a free for all for murderers, rapists, thieves and other such criminals.
****God’s standards are much higher than you think. Are you sure you want to be judged by them?****
It does not matter at all by what standards you are judged, as long as they are applied equally to all. Good people need not worry at all!
The biggest mistake is waiting until eternity to be judged! More and more humans tend not to believe the existence of god because of this utter inactivity leading to serious misery of good humans, not to mention innocent children who are yet to be grown up to understand what is right and wrong. This is actually an indication that god IS blood thirsty, since due to his inactivity, there will be billions of evil humans to be punished mercilessly at the “end”, whereas otherwise, it would be considerably less !
All these thoughts are immaterial when you consider the fact that that god DID actually once tried wiping the slate clean by a GIGANTIC “instant correction” eliminating ALL LIVING BEINGS (why the poor animals? God surely moves in mysterious ways!) except, a few handful of each species, and of course the most respectable person and his family ! YET, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HAPPENED. How can such an enormous act by god go so fruitless?
Are we completely brain dead for not realising the only obvious logical answer?
Hi Nito,
Glad to hear from you again. I thought you had retired after your one-liner on 2nd October.
My reply to your response above (By: Nito on October 25, 2013
at 10:26 am) will be posted soon.
I see, you think God should be a micro manager, but He is not. Even though He was more closely managing the creation for the first six days (when He was conceptualizing it), He stopped doing it on the seventh day (see Genesis 2:1-3) and I don’t believe that He was ever micro-managing it or wanted to do so.
If God would do what you are suggesting, you would not be free to do what you choose (as He would be always doing some “corrections”). Instead you would be just like a puppet, pulled by the correctional strings.
God is not a puppet master, but devil would like to be one. Devil likes to have people as puppets on strings to play them as he likes and then discard them when they stop being useful for his evil schemes. God is always good and devil is always bad.
God is not a micro manager, but helper, friend and counselor. It’s not that He doesn’t want to help and interfere in your life, it’s just that you are not letting Him. You are making roadblocks for the Almighty. By using the gift of your free will you are stopping Him from blessing your life and removing all of the bad stuff.
He cannot go against your will, because He created you and gave you that same will as a gift. If you want to ignore God or be angry at Him you are perfectly entitled to do so. That’s the power of the free will that God gave you.
But even when you don’t want Him, He will still want to help you and would look for the opportunities to reconnect with you, such as through this post. Don’t be a wimp J, I challenge you to accept that God is good and to let Him take you on a beautiful adventure called life fulfilled.
J, it’s a free world and if you choose to be free from God, don’t blame Him for not being there for you. But when you break free from God you have to understand that you automatically join others that have done that in the past. Their leader is the devil who roams around like a lion seeking whom to devour (1 Peter 5:8). Devil will not ask you if you would let him ruin your life, he will just try to do it at every opportunity you will give him.
When you choose to accept God and stop blaming Him for the faults of the humanity and the devil, He will be allowed (by you) to make your life good. You will be blessed and will become a blessing for other people in your circle of influence.
That’s the only way God changes the world, through us, His children. We are meant to have a dominion over the earth (see Genesis 1:26), but Adam blew it and gave this authority to the devil. Nevertheless, God fixed the problem by sending Jesus to win it back for us.
So, if you see a world in turmoil don’t blame God, the power is now back in our hands (i.e. humanity). What are you going to do with it?
It is not necessary for god to be a micro manager or a macro manager or ANY TYPE of manager, since god is PERFECT and god’s creations are also PERFECT. I am not sure whether the scriptures describe in detail how god goes about creating things, but it appears that just a wish is enough. (Let there be light, and there was!). If for some unforeseen reason, (although it is totally absurd to think that there can be any UNFORSEEN reason in the case of god !) the creation is even teeny-weeny different than god’s “conceptualisation”, just another wish would sort out the matter !
You need to MANAGE something if you are not sure whether your product is going to perform exactly the way you designed it to perform. That should be so simple to understand. So the examples of Lucifer becoming the Devil, without any punishment; absurdity of creating a tree without separating good from evil, creating an adult human couple and giving them a “free will” WITHOUT a proper brain to use it correctly, shows imperfect designs and constructions, and the total wilful neglect of making any necessary “corrections”- just another wish or two should have been sufficient- clearly indicates a different mindset than that of a caring, loving, helping entity.
There is no point in blaming the Devil, since it is also an IMPERFECT creation of god, wilfully neglected without necessary “correction” and let looses among humanity to cause terrible misery and utter chaos. I don’t know whether it was ALSO given a “free will”, if not, there should NOT have been ANY problem of a correction, unlike for humans as you allege, but IF SO, it appears that god has not learned a lesson !! You see, things are getting more and more confusing, contradictory, absurd…..
A genuine friend, helper or a counsellor, WILL ALWAYS try to help, EVEN IF IT BECOMES INTERFERENCE!! Won’t you try to snatch the gun from a dear friend who is trying to commit suicide? Won’t you try to guide a child away from a situation of danger? Won’t you force yourself in between two dear friends of yours, who are fighting with each other? Examples are numerous. How can a god be so selfish by refusing to help just because an ignorant human does not obey him? How can a mere mortal place “road blocks” in front of an Almighty? You cannot be THAT serious?
Apart from being a friend, helper and a counselor, God is also a parent. He is also in the “business” of raising children and even though you might not think it, you are one of us. A bit rebellious and angry, but still my brother. So, let’s try to look at your input from a parenting perspective…
Let us assume that you have a child and let us also assume that this child is very disobedient. He is constantly doing something that you told him not to do.
Let us further assume that you love your child very much and the reason you told him not to do those things in the first place is because it would otherwise create a wrong habit in him, causing him harm in the future.
To help your child you need to:
a) Be constantly behind his back, overlooking and watching what he is doing, to the point that if he does something wrong you will ALWAYS immediately make corrective actions regardless of what he thinks of those or what his true wishes are (i.e. “EVEN IF IT BECOMES INTERFERENCE!!”).
b) WARN him beforehand and help him FIRST FEW times when he makes the SAME MISTAKE, giving him good reasons why he should stop doing it, while making your best to correct the mess he made. However, if this fails to help him come to his senses and stop doing that same mistake over and over again, you will go into a “stand-by” mode and wait upon him to call you when he will need your help.
There are bad consequences in both cases. In the first case you are creating either an insecure individual totally dependent on you being around (i.e. almost an automaton), or an angry and rebellious person that hates all authority (who is also potentially dangerous to the society). In the second case your child has decided to enroll into the “school of hard knocks” and you can’t do anything about it. Also, he might not graduate from it for a long time, but you can’t do anything but wait on him to call you when he will decide that he needs you (at which point you will rush in, with “sirens blaring”, quickly restoring everything back to order).
Which parenting method will you pick up, “a” or “b”? Or, do you really want method “a” applied in your upbringing?
“Let us assume that you have a child and…….”
This is the typical response I get when the age old question is posed. However the analogy is completely incomparable due to following reasons.
(1) The essential ingredients of the “first sin by Adam and Eve” scenario are conveniently avoided in your analogy. You should have added something like this:
(a)The father gives a key (free will) to the child and say: “This is the key to that room (tree of knowledge). There are million dollars of money (good) and a ton of explosives (bad) in the room. However the father says “Don’t go into the room.” – Clear instructions or utter confusion for the child?
(b)Child’s elder brother from a different marriage (Lucifer/Satan) who had rebelled against the father with impunity, comes and tell the child “You got the key, let’s go into the room” Father listens, but remains totally lethargic. – Cue for the child to assume, it’s OK ?
(2)Adam and Eve was created by an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omni-everything god as fully grown adults, while humans produce children as uncertain by-products of sex. (although due to advancements of scientific/medical knowledge it is now possible to do it without sex !)
Since Adam and Eve did not have an ordinary human birth, infancy or childhood, or usual family environment, where normal humans gains all the physical and mental skills necessary to exist as adults, god MOST DEFINITELY must have programmed those skills into their physical bodies and brains. There is no other way that Adam and Eve could walk, talk, eat, go to the toilet, have sex, think, take decisions ect, etc.
In the case of a human child, about 18 years of influence of the immediate family and surrounding environment determines its adult behaviour. So primarily, the parents’ character is a major factor in the upbringing of the child. Depending upon the circumstances and the parents’ ability, the child may respond to your method (a) or (b) OR a variable mixture of both. The parents’ ability in turn depends upon THEIR parents’ and so on and so forth.
Ultimately the responsibility ends up with nobody else but god. It is god’s mistake to allow discredited Satan to influence the “New Born” Adam and Eve, who were created without the necessary BRAIN to use the “free will” properly and effectively. No ordinary human parent would punish a child SO HARSHLY on the first mistake. If god had even a sub-atomic particle worth of mercy, such a mistake would have been easily forgiven, but the whole humanity together with the completely innocent animals are facing the wrath of this so called “most merciful” Is there any better joke than this?
So your premise is that teenagers are not responsible for their reactions and also that parents are not responsible for their ability, influence (i.e. lack of) and character, but ultimately the blame could be passed on all the way back to the first parents Adam and Eve and then to their Father (i.e. God). This would mean:
1) That people generally do not have power to think, analyse and predict which of their actions will have a bad outcome. I agree that a vast majority of humans do not have the power to predict future and hence we get into trouble. Our natural curiosity and trust in positive outcomes (i.e. we are made in the image or God our Father) is so easily abused by Satan that we present such an easy “pray”. However, if we live in the presence of God our Father, He will tell us what to do because He knows the future and wants only what’s best for us His children. “You will show me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore” (Psalm 16:11, NKJV). You cannot ignore God or disobey His instructions and then blame Him for bad outcomes. Adam knew that, so he blamed Eve, and she blamed Satan.
2) That people generally tend to repeat the same bad actions over and over again hoping to get a different outcome then the last time, even though they know from experience (theirs and others’) that outcome will be evil. I agree that growing up includes these kinds of lessons, but so did God’s initial instruction to Adam and Eve. He made them well aware of the garden and what’s in it, as otherwise they wouldn’t be able to “tend and keep it” (see Genesis 1:15). Your assumption that God made them gardeners without fully explaining to them how to do gardening is wrong. Adam couldn’t say: “Oh, I didn’t know that You told me not to eat of THAT tree; I thought You meant that other tree over there.” However, I grant you that humans today suffer a lack of knowledge and that’s why they need guidance of the Holy Spirit.
3) That people generally do not have power to change no matter how hard they try. I do agree that some people experience this problem but that’s exactly why they need Jesus. They need to understand that Jesus has already defeated Satan and that he has all the authority and power in heaven and earth (see Matthew 28:18-19). But he also passed on that same authority (that Satan stole from Adam) back to Adam’s descendants (i.e. humanity): “Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you” (Luke 10:19, NKJV). So, humanity cannot be excused from not using the power to change for better and it also cannot be excused from abusing that same power.
The power and authority are back where God put it in the first place (in humans) and devil cannot steal it again. The only thing that devil can do, and is doing, is attacking individuals (with spiritual blindness, bitterness and anger against God etc.) in order to keep them away from God and away from acquiring power that can destroy him and his evil plans.
So, humanity cannot blame God for their own lack of initiative to fight evil. God didn’t just give Adam and Eve (i.e. the first humans) free will, but He also made them rulers over the earth: ‘So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth”’ (Genesis 1:27-28, NKJV).
With the power to rule comes the responsibility.
You also cannot impute that God had a sinister motive by giving Adam and Eve access to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If God’s initial desire was for them to die, He wouldn’t give them access to the tree of life: “The Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. And out of the ground the Lord God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” (Genesis 2:8-9 , NKJV).
If you keep eating the fruit of the tree of life you will live forever. You could then blame Adam and Eve for trading in their divine appointment, authority, power and lack of nothing for the knowledge of evil and the knowledge of death. In other words, they abandoned the true knowledge (which is the knowledge of life, goodness, security, provision etc.) for false knowledge (which is the knowledge of hard work, lack, sickness… and death). However, you cannot make God responsible for their disobedience.
They had all the information; God did not withhold anything from them, but they wanted ‘more’. More of what? If God gave them the fullness of life and immortality what else did they need? To know evil and death? God clearly told them what those terms mean, because devil told Eve that she “will not surely die”, but her eyes will be opened and she will be like God (see Genesis 3:4-5). So she definitely knew what death is. The concept was clear to her as she saw how animals are born and die every day. So the problem is not the lack of information or failure on God’s side to protect them, the problem is that the first couple wanted to be like God, to make themselves equal to Him. Now, that’s totally different ballpark to what you are coming from.
So, I agree that Adam and Eve are guilty, but there is no gilt or shame on God. Adam and Eve rejected the true knowledge because they though it was incomplete. And what happens when you reject knowledge? “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children” (Hosea 4:6, NKJV).
Nevertheless, God didn’t forget Adam and Eve’s children (i.e. humanity) forever. God has made a provision (by coming down as Jesus Christ) and has removed all obstacles, so that anyone who wants to be back in the Garden with Him, could actually count on that.
“But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death” (1 Corinthians 15:20-26, NKJV).
God really needs to Punish the Low Life Loser People out there and Not us innocent ones which completely makes a lot of sense.
The Bible says that all people have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God (see Romans 3:23), so there are no “innocent ones,” unless you are born-again (i.e. Jesus is your Lord) and Jesus had transferred His righteousness to you.
From your comment one could conclude that you believe God is just, hence it is a consoling thought that He will judge the bad guys one day. But, on the other hand, what if you could help the bad guy become good, so both of you would escape judgement? Wouldn’t this be a better outcome?
Imagine being there on the Judgement Day, being called as a witness, because your hardship is written in a witness book (for more info see this post). However, what if the Judge would ask you if you ever prayed for your enemies (as we are commanded to love them – see Matthew 5:44), what would you answer be? Wouldn’t it better sound, when they read your testimony, to hear that you prayed daily for your enemies, and that many of them turned to God…
PS: Praying for one’s enemies doesn’t mean we have to agree with them or help them do evil. Praying for enemies means that you are destroying devil’s hold on them, so they might come out of it if they want to, and receive God’s grace and forgiveness.
Bible was written by “sinners” !! So why believe in it ??
J, mate, haven’t seen you for a while! Hope that everything is going well for you…
Yes, the Bible was physically written by over 40 different different writers over several thousand years, but it has an integrated design (mathematically provable), which points to its transcendental origin.
This means that “sinners” (i.e. people) are not the authors of the Bible, but its origin is divine. Below is a concise and verifiable discourse, which gives evidence that the Author of the Bible is God.
Whether it is “mathematically” proven to be an “integrated design” or not, (Remember – mathematics like any other science is created by “sinners”), the question is, why the god, who (allegedly) created the whole universe, left his “divine” words to be written by 40 different “sinners” over thousand years thereby producing different versions ?
At least he could have got just one “sinner” to write the bible once and for all and prevented other “sinners” to add/delete/modify it over thousand years thereby preventing his divine words getting utterly confusing ?
When you say “different versions” I think we have to qualify that. What we call the Old Testament (written in Hebrew) was translated into Greek about 300 years before Jesus was born. The New Testament was written in Greek in the 1st century, while Jesus’ contemporaries and eye witnesses were still alive (hence Gospels contain a lot of references to those people). So, if you want, you can still read the original Bible texts (i.e. Hebrew and Greek texts) and find out exactly what is the message that God wants you to hear. For example, the Blue Letter Bible (https://www.blueletterbible.org/), allows you to study the original Hebrew and Greek texts next to the English translation of your choice.
Different versions exist because different people did this study and found some insights (or didn’t find them) and then produced their own translations. They sometimes even used other sources than the above-mentioned original texts. Consequently, some translations are very good but some are indeed lacking. So, you are right, confusion was indeed created by the “sinners”.
Even so, every Bible translation will clearly convey the story that Jesus is the Savior, and if we follow Him (i.e. are His disciples) we have received and we have eternal life as a gift. This means that when we die we will continue to live with Him in the Heavenly places and will not come back (i.e. reincarnate). So, you can see that there is no confusion about the most important issues of life, every Bible translation is clear about it.
The differences of opinions arise in other areas, which affect our quality of life here, while we are still in these mortal bodies. For example, the original texts will show you that as Jesus’ disciples we have received authority and power to destroy the works of the devil (i.e. evil) and establish God’s Kingdom, but unfortunately, that is not a prevalent understanding among Christians. So, the problem is not just in different translations of the Bible, but also in its interpretation, where “sinners” don’t really follow what’s written in God’s Word (i.e. the Bible) but rather follow their own traditions. The only solution for that is to find a good Bible-based church, or get in touch with somebody that really lives Christianity (in deeds, and doesn’t just confess it with words).
J, I would like you to experience and posses the power and authority of Jesus in your own life. I pray for various people every week and God unfailingly touches them and heals them in the name of Jesus, so I’m sure He will do that for you also. You are His child too and He loves you very much. If you need somebody to pray with you and destroy the evil that affects your own life, let me know and we will do that together.
All the explanation you have given simply supports what I said – that god made a mistake/miscalculation when an original bible was not created at the beginning or at least when Adam ( & Eve ) was created !! If Adam and Eve had a bible to read all this problems the humans ( and also the animals ) are facing would not be there !
You mean if they (Adam & Eve) had a “manual” explaining everything that would happen due to their disobedience, they would choose to trust God and not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
They did have a “manual”! In the form of a few simple instructions:
1) be fruitful and multiply
2) spread throughout the earth and subjugate it (i.e. extend the garden of Eden to the ends of the earth)
3) rule over everything on earth, being God’s representatives for the earth
4) eat from every plant, fruit and seed.
5) but don’t eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, or otherwise you will become mortals (i.e. you will surely die).
If they followed their “manual”, we today wouldn’t need the Bible. The Bible is a written record of what happened after mankind fell (hence it was written over a several thousands of years), why they did it, and how they couldn’t help themselves but are in a dire need of the Savior Jesus.
So Adam and Eve obeyed 4 out of 5. Just because they disobeyed 20%, was it necessary to put a curse on the entire mankind ?( and on the poor animals too !!) Besides what was the big idea in creating a tree of Good AND Evil ?? Why wasn’t they separated ? Wasn’t Satan responsible for misleading Eve ? Why couldn’t god punish Satan instead of his supreme creation, man ? After all, Satan also was one of god’s creation who was disobedient. Looks like god got all mixed up !!
An accountant worked faithfully for his employer for four years, but in the fifth year he found an opportunity to put some money on a side for his own use. However, his employer found out and sacked him. After he lost his job nobody else would hire him as an accountant, because he had a criminal record. Consequently, his standard of living dropped, he lost his house, and his family couldn’t afford the lifestyle they all had previously enjoyed. They even had to loose and let go of their pet dog and cat onto the streets, as they could afford no more to take care of them. Is it fair that this accountant could not anymore find a job as an accountant, but had to work as a manual laborer for the rest of his life?
Is it fair that Adam and Eve, after not trusting God but instead trusting Satan, chose to become mortal people (instead of staying immortal gods of the earth) and then found out they couldn’t go back (because they passed on their godly authority and power over the earth to Satan, so he is now god of the earth)?
It’s not God’s fault they chose to trust the devil and then couldn’t go back. The only way this could happen was for Satan to give, by his own free will, the godship over the earth back to Adam and Eve (i.e. the same way they gave it to him – by their own free will).
God could not intervene as the Father, because the Bible says He is also the righteous Judge, judging the whole creation. After man’s fall, He couldn’t just punish Satan without also destroying Adam and Eve, because they were guilty as well. Otherwise, He wouldn’t be just.
Satan knew that God would not destroy His own children, because He valued and loved them above everything else. Devil knew he would go unpunished and he basically took Adam and Eve hostage. Receiving the power and authority from them he became the god of the earth, and got closer to fulfilling his dream to be worshiped by God’s creation.
Hence, we can all see the evidence of Satan’s current rule over the earth. The suffering of mankind and animals, calamities, sickness, death et. all is all due to his reign, but he is skillfully diverting the attention from himself onto God (i.e. blaming Him in the process).
But 2000 years ago God came as a man Jesus, died on the cross, rose from the dead and thus took the power and authority (as a man who defeated death) back from Satan and placed it into the hands of His own disciples. They are empowered to destroy the works of the devil and restore God’s Kingdom on the earth. So, the only proper thing that anyone could do is to become Jesus’ disciple and then start working on restoring the earth, as per God’s original plan.
Now, the question about the tree of good and evil… I think the answer is covered in the 3-part series “The Problem of Evil” (part 1 is here: https://holyscience.wordpress.com/2015/10/11/the-problem-of-evil-part-1/).
I just read the whole thread above and I see we’ve already touched upon your question: “…a tree of Good AND Evil ?? Why wasn’t they separated ?”
When Adam and Eve were immortals / gods they saw death and decay in nature, but it didn’t apply to them. They had an intellectual knowledge how death is opposite to life, how decay is opposite to youth/growth, how weakness is opposite to strength… but because they were gods, eating from the tree of life, the opposite of evil didn’t apply to them. We could say they had an experiential knowledge of good but only an intellectual knowledge of evil (i.e. death, decay, weakness etc.).
In other words, they saw the separation of good and evil in nature – it’s wrong to think that they weren’t able to distinguish the one from the other – but in reality, they didn’t have an experiential knowledge of evil on their own skin. Nevertheless, they could understand it’s bad and wrong, so they didn’t eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil until Satan tricked Eve into thinking that God lied to them and doesn’t want what’s best for them: “Then the serpent said to the woman, ‘You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.'” (Genesis 3:4-5, NKJV)
Why was the tree even there in the garden, that’s another question, which I tried to address in the “The Problem of Evil” series mentioned above.
Again, your “Accountant” analogy is only partially applicable. While Adam and Eve were entirely designed and created by infinitely powerful, infinitely intelligent, (leaving aside other qualities) god, the “employer” had no part in designing, creating or the upbringing of the “Accountant”. On the other hand, Adam and Eve were created as adults, so ALL their physical and mental capabilities should be responsibilities and liabilities of, NOBODY ELSE, but god alone. They had no parents, relatives or any other human beings to associate with. The only influence other than god, was of course the “Elder brother” Satan created by, nobody else but god ! (only god knows for what purpose ?)
Many human “employers” would consider the circumstances, (such as for instance, if one of his sons instigated the accountant) why the “Accountant” erred after 4 years of good work, and may have pardoned him/her. The god instead of punishing Satan, punished his most important (“Masterpiece”, some call it) creation, extending the punishment to completely innocent rest of the human race, while allowing Satan to carry out the cruel, destructive work eternally!
So the rest of your analogy is irrelevant.
“…only way this could happen was for Satan to give, by his own free will,…” !!
Hang on, did god give a free will to Satan also ? That is interesting !. I thought that it was only Adam and Eve were given “free will”, and of course to be inherited by the humans !
“God could not intervene as the Father, because the Bible says He is also the righteous Judge, judging the whole creation.”
Isn’t the Bible god’s own words ? So why did god utter words which would prevent him intervening when necessary ? Isn’t it self-defeating, like shooting yourself your own foot ?
On the other hand, hasn’t god intervened whenever it seemed to be required, sometimes catastrophically, eg; the Great Flood, which destroyed 99.99% of the entire living beings of the Earth at that time ? Wouldn’t it have been much simpler to destroy Adam, Eve and of course the real culprit Satan ? ( god also should have considered destroying the CONFUSING “Tree of knowledge of good AND evil” and created TWO different trees instead, and ordering the new man and woman, say Donald and Hillary (!) to NOT to eat from the “Tree of knowledge of Evil” !!)
“..judging the whole creation..”
Why on Earth does a god with infinite power, intelligence and wisdom, need to “judge” own creations ? Isn’t god sure of them or are they just experimental trials ?
“Satan knew that God would not destroy His own children, because He valued and loved them above everything else. Devil knew he would go unpunished and he basically took Adam and Eve hostage.”
Well, didn’t god know what Satan knew ? Didn’t god have any idea how to hoodwink Satan and save the “hostages”? Was the god “omnipotent” or IMPOTENT ?
I see, you thought that only humans have free will, while the rest of the Creation doesn’t. There are religions (e.g. Hinduism) which teach that Creation is God’s play (i.e. lila), so it doesn’t have a free will, but Judeo-Christian teaching is the opposite. Everything in Creation has a free will, including Lucifer, whom God created as perfect and with a distinct purpose, but he rebelled against God and became Satan (i.e. “adversary”, “enemy”).
So, if God would intervene, as you are suggesting, He would need to overrule somebody’s free will. In society we have laws and if somebody breaks them they aren’t immediately put away, but a proper judicial process has to happen. Only after this judicial process would finish and the verdict has been reached, the culprit is going to be placed behind the bars. Similarly, an orderly judicial process is established in the spiritual realms as well. I like Robert Henderson’s book about that topic: “Operating in the Courts of Heaven” (and here is a 28 minute episode of “It’s Supernatural” where he talks about it).
Hence, putting away evil requires proper judicial process. For example, God could not give the Promised Land to the Israelites until He could legally judge Amorites so sinful as to deserve to be wiped out from the land: “Then in the fourth generation your descendants shall return here [to Canaan, the land of promise], for the wickedness and guilt of the Amorites is not yet complete (finished)” (Genesis 15:16, AMP).
I would challenge you to try to forget the concepts thought by the eastern religions (e.g. God’s lila, reincarnation, karma, etc.), as they do not apply to the Christian faith nor accurately describe Father God. He is not capricious and arbitrary puppet master, throwing away His toys on a whim. He is trustworthy and has chosen to be bound by the laws He has set in motion. In other words, He is limiting Himself and the use of His own power in order to provide free choice to the Creation.
“Wouldn’t it have been much simpler to destroy Adam, Eve and of course the real culprit Satan?” – Evidence for destroying Satan, and the one third of the angels that rebelled with him, is still being gathered and their judicial process will finish on the Judgement Day (after which they will be destroyed in the lake of fire). On the contrary, Adam and Eve will live forever with God. So, isn’t that a better outcome?
Before I reply, could you categorically say that god gave free will to ALL creations, humans, ALL animals, angels ? How about other living things eg, microbes, bacteria, virus…. and then trees, plants ? Can you quote from scriptures to substantiate either the positive or otherwise ?
I see you point – I made a mistake saying “everything in Creation has a free will” – which I’ve used as a figure of speech… obviously animals don’t have free will, but follow their instincts. However, angels do have free will… otherwise they would not be able to rebel and choose to abandon their original God-given purpose.
Here is the scripture explaining Lucifer’s (a.k.a. Satan) motives to rebel: “How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: ‘I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.’ Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.” (Isaiah 14:12-15, NKJV, emphasis mine)
Satan also managed to mobilize 1/3 of the angels to side with him (see discussion with scripture references here). These fallen angels are what we refer to as demons and together with Satan they are the source of ALL evil.